Dutch EU Presidency 2016 – Foreign Affairs Minister Bert Koenders outlines presidency’s priorities & answers to questions by the Foreign Press Association

By Nikos Koulousios (Hellas Pindakaas / Salto Stads FM)

On 5 and 6 February Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs Bert Koenders hosted an informal meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council, also known as ‘Gymnich’, attended by the EU’s High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy and the foreign ministers of all EU member states. The “Gymnich” took place at the National Maritime Museum in Amsterdam and, after it was officially over, minister Koenders met with the Foreign Press Association of The Netherlands. He presented to us the priorities of the Dutch Presidency, the challenges that lie ahead for European and Dutch foreign policy and answered questions from the 12 foreign correspondents that were present in the meeting.

Bert Koenders is a diplomat and a member of the Dutch Labour party (PvdA). His first ministerial position was is 2007, when he became Minister without Portfolio for Development Cooperation in the Fourth Balkenende cabinet. Between 2011 and 2013, he served as the United Nations Secretary-General’s Special Representative and Head of the United Nations Operation in Côte d’Ivoire (UNOCI). And between 2013 and 2014, he was the Special Representative and Head of the United Nations Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali (MINUSMA) appointed by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. It comes as no surprise, that with him in the seat of the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, The Netherlands is a strong candidate for the UN Security Council. Here is what he had to say on the matter: “We are a candidate for the UN Security Council and we are actively campaigning on this with a concrete agenda. I have worked myself in the last 4 years for the UN. It’s clear to me that in a time and age where there is very little consensus in the world and there is a lot of shouting and screaming, the legitimacy of international decisions is extremely key in realizing it’s very difficult to make those decisions. And therefore our investment in multilateral work is very genuine and very serious. That’s why we have large contributions to very difficult peace-keeping operations, including Mali, and we are also active in the fight against ISIS and in the global coalition of fighting terrorism. We are active militarily in training troops in Iraq, working towards a more stable Iraq. Which is an issue closely related to what is happening in Syria and our efforts for finding a peace-process in Syria and getting rid of ISIS.”

Opening speech – Priorities of Dutch Presidency

In his opening speech Minister Koenders outlined the priorities of the Dutch Presidency. He mentioned three issues that the presidency needs to be proactive on and added that these are the pressing issues that the citizens of Europe are concerned about, “whether they are European federalists or Eurosceptics”. Issue number one is the economy and the need for fairness and sustainable growth. He said: “our priorities in the presidency are very much related to those two elements – creating a digital market, an internal market, keeping a certain amount of macroeconomic stability, and also realizing that for many people this europeanisation of the economy is leading to a lot of insecurity. Therefore part of that agenda is the fairness of the internal market and that relates especially to, for example the priority we have for one salary for the same work in each country, which comes into the mobility package when you talk about the discussions we have with the UK.”

The second priority of the Dutch presidency has to do with security and terrorism. He mentioned that external and internal security are so related, that more than ever people want some kind of European answers to this. He stressed that people want to see decisions being implemented, and not Brussels type solutions that are too slow and do not answer to real problems. That is why the Dutch approach is pragmatic and operational and, as an example, he mentioned the global counter-terrorism conference the Dutch organized 3 weeks ago. Koenders explained that the presidency is engaging in constructive engineering. “This is not the time to go into all kinds of new federal dreams; it’s also not the time to be extremely skeptic and neo-nationalist. We have to address this second concern of citizens, with a very pragmatic, operational implementation of the necessary decisions”.

Third priority, or rather concern, of the Dutch presidency is “everything that is related to asylum seekers and migration.” There are three elements to an effective asylum policy. As he described them, the first is of course “work at the source” of the crisis, which has to do a lot with the war in Syria. Europe has to have a proactive role in addressing this. “What is happening now in Aleppo is a good example of what we can do”.

The second key issue in relation to the migration crisis, is the partnerships of Europe with the rest of the world. Turkey comes to the forefront of this discussion. The presidency is very much directed in making that agreement work, in ensuring that “when we talk about monitoring the spending of money aiming to support refugees in the region, something is actually happening, something is done!”

The third element of migration policy, which the presidency deems crucial, is EU’s external borders. “You cannot function in Schengen if you have not strengthened your external borders. That is why we are giving priority to Frontex, to EASO (European Asylum Support Office), to discussions we have on the Schengen agreement, to the discussion we have with Greece. And that is an obligation for all European countries. I think there is no disagreement among the European countries. If you want to keep Schengen, you need to have external borders, where people can be screened in an appropriate way, so that those who have the right to asylum can come in and others can’t.”

“Another important element if you talk about external border policy, is of course internal coherence. Which is a very complex issue but I still think that it’s possible for the 28 countries to agree on a common asylum and migration policy. But we realize that the transaction costs of 28 countries is much higher than when you do it with 12 or 6 countries”, says Koenders.

Minister Koenders concluded his introduction with the following: “In a nutshell, the Dutch Presidency’s role will be to be realistic, constructive, extremely operational and pragmatic. Because we have to show progress on these three areas that our citizens expect us to address. We realize it is a very complex period, with a lot of challenges ahead, and keeping the group together so-to-speak is an enormous task. And part of that is coming up in the summit of the European Council in 2 weeks, where, in our view, one issue will be the negotiations with the UK as to its future in the EU, which we in the Netherlands attach a great importance to, but obviously only within the context of our European treaties. We have to see in the coming weeks to what extent we can come to an agreement with the UK, and then obviously is up to the British public to make their choice. And the second key issue for the European Council summit will be the decisions on the migration crisis.”

Question time

Time for questions. The refugee issue was first on the agenda of the foreign correspondents and it did monopolize to some extent the conversation. First question, by Greek correspondent Nikos Koulousios, was about the plan that Diederik Samsom, leader of the PvdA, proposed recently, in which refugees who arrived on the Greek islands could be ferried back to Turkey. According to the plan, EU member states would pledge to take up to 250,000 refugees a year and Turkey would agree to take back the remainder of the refugees. Koenders tried to keep some distance from Samsom’s proposal, without completely discrediting it.

Koenders: “First of all, it is a plan of Diederick Samsom. He is the leader of my party, but you have a responsibility as a fraction leader in the parliament and of course a responsibility as a member of the government. But let me not completely hide it between the formalities on this. I have written a letter to the parliament, arguing that in itself this is a plan of Diederick Samsom. I see that this is inspirational, as a contribution to the Dutch debate. We welcome many elements of that plan, which in my view are already being discussed in a European context. And in any case everything has to be done according to international legal principles, as mr Samsom I’m sure would also agree. As you know Turkey is at the moment in the process of adapting legislation, based on the agreement we have with Ankara, an agreement that aims at ensuring that the poisonous and dangerous business model of smugglers can be stopped.”

Nikos Koulousios (Hellas Pindakaas/Salto): In your opinion, shouldn’t the smugglers be stopped in Turkey? Because they operate from Turkey. And the hot-spots, should they be in Turkey?

Koenders: First we have to implement the decisions that we have agreed on so far, that means hot-spots in Greece but also in Italy. And I think we have to give full support to the Greek government and to the Italian government to ensure that the hot-spots are actually created. And that has to be through Frontex and EASO (European Asylum Support Office), like we do in Greece with the border security team that we supply to the Greek government, which I discussed this morning with minister Kotzias. Secondly, in discussion with Turkey and the agreement there, the idea is that people remain in the region, in Turkey. Turkey at the moment takes 2.1 million refugees, which is an enormous responsibility and I have a lot of respect for that. But also they, like us, have to abide by international law. And that is an element also of these considerations.”

Question: Is it really just a Samsom plan, because when you read that interview it is clear that it is a lot more than just that. Furthermore, Samsom also talked about a core group of countries taking action, mentioning Austria, Germany and Sweden. How likely is it that a core group of EU countries will get together and come to a decision to stop the influx of refugees?

Koenders: It’s always good for Europe if countries get together and they want to influence something in the EU. But as European President now I am responsible for a European approach. And I want Schengen to remain intact and to come to European policies as a whole.

In his introduction, Minister Koenders, talked about internal coherence and a common asylum and migration policy, and he added that “the transaction cost of 28 countries is much higher than when you do it with 12 or 6 countries.” So that begged the following question:

Question: Would you say that it is more profitable to work with a core group or you cannot say that because of your function now?

Koenders: It’s not that I cannot say it. I really believe that we are now coming to a point where – I think also the prime minister and mister Samsom have said that – where we have to show some concrete progress in the next 1-2 months, progress in what we have agreed on together in Europe. Let’s not get into other scenarios at a moment that we are trying to reach an agreement on this.

Question: What about the border between Greece and FYROM. A number of EU countries are now deploying on a bilateral basis border guards to help enforce controls at the border there. What do you think should happen at the Greek-FYROM border? Should people be allowed to travel through even if they are not registered? And what should happen with people that are not in the right to be granted asylum? Should they stay in Greece until they can be sent back to their home countries?

Koenders: I don’t know if I have a judgment on this, as president of the EU. But let me first say there was a letter of Junker to the prime minister of Slovenia, which basically referred to the need for all countries to abide by Dublin, including the wish that that is also being done by the countries in the western Balkans. This is something that we discussed this morning with the countries of the western Balkans who are here, including FYROM. That means that article 26 of the Schengen agreement, you know, the decision of the commission towards Greece, has to be taken seriously. But I don’t want to come into a blame game towards Greece, I think that is wrong. We have to support Greece. I think that is the essence. Not only that we have to support Greece as a European Union, but at the same time, if support for proper screening processes is given to western Balkan countries, that’s fine, but I would really plea for a European approach on that. The western Balkans are important, there is a lot flow of refugees that is of course being influenced by decisions in Austria and in Slovenia, and so you see this cascading model. My only answer to that, as president of the European Union for 2016, is simply let’s execute what has been agreed on. That is an obligation for Greece but also a necessity to support Greece.

Question: But according to your view what has been agreed on, is that people who cannot claim asylum, or have no right to asylum, should stay in Greece, until they are sent back. There shouldn’t be travelling to Germany or to the Netherlands.

Koenders: That’s not for me to make a judgment on. I just told you what are the international legal obligations and the Schengen obligations, for all of us. So I think we have to protect Schengen, to keep it together, and therefore certain decisions have been made and they have to be implemented.

Nikos Koulousios (Hellas Pindakaas/Salto): Is the doctrine in Holland that you should receive as less refugees as possible in this country? And try to contain them in Greece or Italy?

Koenders: I don’t think you heard that from me. So the answer is no. We are in favor of a fair distribution in Europe. That is what we need, we need a fair distribution of refugees in Europe.

Nikos Koulousios (Hellas Pindakaas/Salto): Has it been fair so far?

Koenders: I think we see that it is not that fair. There are some countries that accept quite a few refugees, and other countries that don’t. I think that is one of the issues that we need more solidarity in Europe. No doubt about it.

Question: Austria and Hungary called for a fence to be erect at the Greek borders with FYROM and Bulgaria. I was wondering how that went down at today’s meeting with the foreign ministers here in Amsterdam.

Koenders: This issue has not been discussed at all. We have all insisted that whatever measures should be taken, they are taken within the European perspective.

Question: About the Schengen issue. Following the meeting of the ministers today, it seems that the countries that have imposed border controls are planning to extend them after May. Are you going to have talks with these countries? Because you said that you will do everything you can to safeguard Schengen. What are you planning to do?

Koenders: You can have, under certain conditions, temporary border controls or more targeted controls. These decisions, be they unilateral or not, whether you agree with them or not, in themselves they are made within the context of the Schengen agreement. Second we know that in order to safeguard the Schengen agreement, to make sure that it continues as an agreement in which we have a free flow of people and goods, we have to invest in external border control. You cannot have internal borders that are open if you are not sure that protection of your external borders and the screening are strong and accurate. That is why there is so much discussion now on Frontex, on Greece, on Turkey, on EASO, on hot spots. The decision that has been proposed by the European Commission, according to article 26, again gives the possibility of extending these temporary measures, within the context of the Schengen agreement. In that context it is important that we support Greece in protecting its external borders.

Question: For how long can those countries extend the border controls and still be in agreement with Schengen?

Koenders: It is a possibility to extend, for a limited period of time.

Question: How long is that?

Koenders: You have to check article 26….

Journalists: Up to 2 years.

Question: If Greece is finally excluded from Schengen, is that a serious blow for Schengen?

Journalists: There is no possibility for that to happen.

Koenders: I am definitely not going to speculate on Greece leaving Schengen..

Nikos Koulousios (Hellas Pindakaas/Salto): But do you find it absurd as an issue for discussion?

Koenders: I am not going to comment on that.

Nikos Koulousios (Hellas Pindakaas/Salto): In 2013 your predecessor minister Timmermans, presented to parliament the outcome of the ‘subsidiarity review’. I read from the website of the Dutch government: The Netherlands is convinced that the time of an ‘ever closer union’ in every possible policy area is behind us. With this initiative, the Netherlands aims to initiate a process in the EU, based on the principle: ‘European where necessary, national where possible’. So, the Dutch 3 years ago were arguing that with Europe in crisis, the EU has to be more effective in giving answers to people’s problems. That’s in theory, because in reality many member states fear that the Dutch, with this subsidiarity review, wanted to limit the role of the European Commission, because they think that in many cases the Commission has acted arrogantly and towards financial governance. So the Dutch pushed for a new model where the member states will have the upper hand in many areas. Will this eventually lead to a point where big and powerful member states will have a bigger say in European politics than smaller and weaker member states?

Koenders: First of all, in my view at least, the subsidiarity review means that Europe should focus on the things that we have to do on a European level. It sounds like a cliché but everybody realizes that environmental policy you do on a European level. The foreign policy we need now in terms of sanctions towards Russia, we do it together. I think we all agree that Brussels should not take more powers as to things that could be easily done on a national level. So, on all decisions there is now a very strong subsidiarity test. Holland thinks that not all issues should be decided upon on a European level, like the proposal for more fruit in our schools.

Nikos Koulousios (Hellas Pindakaas/Salto): So you want less European Commission in certain decisions and more individual member states?

Koenders: No, I don’t want to see less European Commission…

Nikos Koulousios (Hellas Pindakaas/Salto): Is it not the opinion of the Dutch government that the Commission has been acting arrogantly in many ways and in favor of more financial governance?

Koenders: Let me say this, because I know I can be quoted on what you said. I am the president of the EU, it’s not a very good idea to be quoted saying that the Commission is arrogant. I don’t think so.

Epilogue

All in all, Minister Koenders appeared to be well-prepared and ready for action. He repeatedly mentioned the need for the Dutch Presidency to be proactive and pragmatic. He addressed two major audiences with his answers, the federalists and the eurosceptics, and throughout the discussion he tried to keep the balance between the needs of both groups. He had a carrot and a stick for both of them. Like a true and experienced diplomat, he walked on a cutting edge with wit and reserve. He kept some distance from Samsom’s plan for refugees being sent back to Turkey, while embracing some of the elements of that plan. He stressed many times the need to not only make decisions as a whole in Europe, but also be responsible and implement them in full and with no delays. And, he made abundantly clear that we have to support countries like Greece, and help them manage the refugee issue without playing the blame game. Finally he said we should safeguard the Schengen Treaty. In that, he did defend the right of EU countries to impose temporary border controls and he avoided like a plague any speculation on countries leaving the Schengen agreement.